I noticed this evening this group has an "about" section that is full of about 10-12 questions. I think this is really neat. I am in a ton of groups and I had never seen questions asked like this before. These are really good questions.
So, I sat down tonight, and began
answering these 10 questions or so, with scripture. If anyone has any
questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
I called this the "closing argument"
OSAS: CLOSING ARGUMENT:
"OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved. Can a TRUE born again believer lose salvation or not? What is the TRUE Gospel of Christ? What is man's role in salvation? What is the difference between salvation and sanctification? How can a person lose salvation? What verses do you have to support your position? Is OSAS biblical? What does OSAS have to do with Christ's work of redemption, justification, imputation, propitiation, and atonement? What is the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation? Can a person really know they have eternal life? How?"
1. Can a TRUE born again believer lose salvation or not?
ANSWER:
For starters, I do not believe a “true believer” is “born again” but that is a different subject. I understand where people are coming from when they say “born again”, so to answer your question; No a true believer today cannot lose their salvation.
2. What is man's role in salvation?
ANSWER:
A man’s role in salvation is simply BELIEVING the GOSPEL. The gospel being what Paul refers to as “the gospel of Christ” see Romans 1:16 in which Paul says “it is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT *BELIEVETH*
The gospel of Christ, centers around the cross work of Jesus Christ and what was accomplished for mankind 2000 years ago at Calvary. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 that the “preaching OF THE CROSS is to them that perish foolishness, but unto US WHICH *ARE* SAVED, it is THE POWER OF GOD.
So, there is POWER in the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and there is POWER in the PREACHING OF THE CROSS. The preaching of the cross and the gospel of Christ go hand in hand.
So what is the GOSPEL that one must simply believe?
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul states that he delivered unto those people at Corinth, THE GOSPEL which he preached unto them which they had received, and it was THIS GOSPEL that Paul preached by which they were SAVED, unless they BELIEVED IN VAIN. Paul said, he simply delivered unto them, what he had received and he goes into specific detail in verse 3 and 4 as to what THE GOSPEL is. Paul says in verse 3, “HOW THAT CHRIST DIED OR OUR SINS” according to the scripture, and HE WAS BURIED AND ROSE AGAIN THE 3rd DAY” according to the scriptures.
This is the GOOD NEWS of Jesus Christ. This GOOD NEWS, this GOSPEL is what God requires MAN to BELIEVE in order to be SAVED.
So, man’s role is to BELIEVE the GOSPEL. Nothing more, nothing less, simply BELIEVE.
3. What is the TRUE Gospel of Christ?
ANSWER:
See my answer to question #2.
4. What is the difference between salvation and sanctification?
SANCTIFICATION – is to be separated, to be set apart as Holy unto God.
SANCTIFICATION takes on the likeness of “ownership” When a person believes the gospel, they are “separated” from their prior owner and become the possession of their new owner. When we are SANCTIFICED we are “separated” from our OLD IDENTITY and joined to our NEW IDENTITY.
The OLD IDENTITY is in that of ADAM – The OLD MAN.
The NEW IDENTITY is in that of CHRIST – The NEW MAN.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
There is DEATH in Adam ( eternal separation from God ) and there is LIFE in Christ.
SALVATION – There is physical salvation ( see Luke 1:71, Acts 2:40 ) There is REDEMPTION { freedom by payment of a price } ( see Romans 3:24 ) from the bondage of sin, if one will simply believe the gospel.
5. How can a person lose salvation?
ANSWER:
They can’t! It’s ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for a believer to “lose” his salvation. How would God “unredeem” you? Romans 3:24. How would God “uncircumcised” you? Colossians 2:13. How would God “unsave” you? 1 Corinthians 15:2. How would God “unbaptize” you? 1 Corinthians 12:13. How would God “unaccept” you? Ephesians 1:6. There is not ONE SIN on the table that you and I could do, that would cause God to take away YOUR salvation. Do you know that you are “bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh”? Ephesians 5:30. If God the Father could put a BELIEVER who is IN CHRIST in hell, then do you know part of Jesus Christ would go to hell with you?
6. What verses do you have to support your position?
ANSWER:
Verses to support OSAS?
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye WERE ( past tense ) SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7. Is OSAS biblical?
ANSWER: Yes!
8. What does OSAS have to do with Christ's work of redemption, justification, imputation, propitiation, and atonement?
ANSWER:
Romans 8:1 NO CONDEMNATION! Christ is doing the REDEEMING, Christ through the holy Spirit is doing the SEALING. Christ is doing the JUSTIFICATION & ATONEMENT, Christ through the holy Spirit is doing the SEALING. Christ was the PROPITIATION, it is Christ through the holy Spirit which is doing the SEALING.
Christ has given us a SEAL:
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
This SEAL is a promise from God that he will return for us one day and give us a NEW BODY, fashioned like his glorious body. See Ephesians 1:13-14, Philippians 3:21.
9. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation?
ANSWER:
The holy Spirit is responsible for baptizing us into Christ body, the church. The holy Spirit is responsible for SEALING us unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30.
10. Can a person really know they have eternal life? How?
ANSWER:
YES, by taking God by his WORD.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I called this the "closing argument"
OSAS: CLOSING ARGUMENT:
"OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved. Can a TRUE born again believer lose salvation or not? What is the TRUE Gospel of Christ? What is man's role in salvation? What is the difference between salvation and sanctification? How can a person lose salvation? What verses do you have to support your position? Is OSAS biblical? What does OSAS have to do with Christ's work of redemption, justification, imputation, propitiation, and atonement? What is the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation? Can a person really know they have eternal life? How?"
1. Can a TRUE born again believer lose salvation or not?
ANSWER:
For starters, I do not believe a “true believer” is “born again” but that is a different subject. I understand where people are coming from when they say “born again”, so to answer your question; No a true believer today cannot lose their salvation.
2. What is man's role in salvation?
ANSWER:
A man’s role in salvation is simply BELIEVING the GOSPEL. The gospel being what Paul refers to as “the gospel of Christ” see Romans 1:16 in which Paul says “it is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT *BELIEVETH*
The gospel of Christ, centers around the cross work of Jesus Christ and what was accomplished for mankind 2000 years ago at Calvary. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 that the “preaching OF THE CROSS is to them that perish foolishness, but unto US WHICH *ARE* SAVED, it is THE POWER OF GOD.
So, there is POWER in the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and there is POWER in the PREACHING OF THE CROSS. The preaching of the cross and the gospel of Christ go hand in hand.
So what is the GOSPEL that one must simply believe?
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul states that he delivered unto those people at Corinth, THE GOSPEL which he preached unto them which they had received, and it was THIS GOSPEL that Paul preached by which they were SAVED, unless they BELIEVED IN VAIN. Paul said, he simply delivered unto them, what he had received and he goes into specific detail in verse 3 and 4 as to what THE GOSPEL is. Paul says in verse 3, “HOW THAT CHRIST DIED OR OUR SINS” according to the scripture, and HE WAS BURIED AND ROSE AGAIN THE 3rd DAY” according to the scriptures.
This is the GOOD NEWS of Jesus Christ. This GOOD NEWS, this GOSPEL is what God requires MAN to BELIEVE in order to be SAVED.
So, man’s role is to BELIEVE the GOSPEL. Nothing more, nothing less, simply BELIEVE.
3. What is the TRUE Gospel of Christ?
ANSWER:
See my answer to question #2.
4. What is the difference between salvation and sanctification?
SANCTIFICATION – is to be separated, to be set apart as Holy unto God.
SANCTIFICATION takes on the likeness of “ownership” When a person believes the gospel, they are “separated” from their prior owner and become the possession of their new owner. When we are SANCTIFICED we are “separated” from our OLD IDENTITY and joined to our NEW IDENTITY.
The OLD IDENTITY is in that of ADAM – The OLD MAN.
The NEW IDENTITY is in that of CHRIST – The NEW MAN.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
There is DEATH in Adam ( eternal separation from God ) and there is LIFE in Christ.
SALVATION – There is physical salvation ( see Luke 1:71, Acts 2:40 ) There is REDEMPTION { freedom by payment of a price } ( see Romans 3:24 ) from the bondage of sin, if one will simply believe the gospel.
5. How can a person lose salvation?
ANSWER:
They can’t! It’s ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for a believer to “lose” his salvation. How would God “unredeem” you? Romans 3:24. How would God “uncircumcised” you? Colossians 2:13. How would God “unsave” you? 1 Corinthians 15:2. How would God “unbaptize” you? 1 Corinthians 12:13. How would God “unaccept” you? Ephesians 1:6. There is not ONE SIN on the table that you and I could do, that would cause God to take away YOUR salvation. Do you know that you are “bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh”? Ephesians 5:30. If God the Father could put a BELIEVER who is IN CHRIST in hell, then do you know part of Jesus Christ would go to hell with you?
6. What verses do you have to support your position?
ANSWER:
Verses to support OSAS?
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye WERE ( past tense ) SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7. Is OSAS biblical?
ANSWER: Yes!
8. What does OSAS have to do with Christ's work of redemption, justification, imputation, propitiation, and atonement?
ANSWER:
Romans 8:1 NO CONDEMNATION! Christ is doing the REDEEMING, Christ through the holy Spirit is doing the SEALING. Christ is doing the JUSTIFICATION & ATONEMENT, Christ through the holy Spirit is doing the SEALING. Christ was the PROPITIATION, it is Christ through the holy Spirit which is doing the SEALING.
Christ has given us a SEAL:
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
This SEAL is a promise from God that he will return for us one day and give us a NEW BODY, fashioned like his glorious body. See Ephesians 1:13-14, Philippians 3:21.
9. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation?
ANSWER:
The holy Spirit is responsible for baptizing us into Christ body, the church. The holy Spirit is responsible for SEALING us unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30.
10. Can a person really know they have eternal life? How?
ANSWER:
YES, by taking God by his WORD.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
- You, Trent A Garges, Sabrina Smith Caetta Sayre and 7 others like this.
Rachel Dalrymple Nice. For the first question you said that you do not believe a "true believer" is "born again". Could you explain what you mean by that? As I thought Jesus said you must be born again to enter heaven.
Bernie Hance John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again.
THEE and YE are 2nd person pronouns.
THEE is 2nd person pronoun in the singular form.
THEE represents Nicodemus
"marvel not that I said unto YOU NICODEMUS...........YE"
YE is a 2nd person pronoun in the plural form.
YE in the context represents the "group of believers" in this case, the "believing remnant of Israel"
Israel as a nation must be "born again" because they were "born of God" the first time.
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
At the end of the tribulation Jesus Christ will return to Zion and the believing remnant of Israel that "endured to the end" will be "born again"
Ezekiel 36:24-28 speaks about Israel being born again. Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us exactly who is being born again. House of Israel, House of Judah. Ezekiel 37 are those who are dead that will be "born again" Jesus during his earthly ministry spoke to the 12 in Matthew 19:28 saying:
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
REGENERATION is the "rebirth" Jesus says the "rebirth" or REGENERATION happens when "the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory" Well this is a future event. Jesus Christ today isn't sitting on David's throne yet in Jerusalem, but some day he will be.
So being "born again" has to do with Israel, because it was Israel that was born of God the first time.
We in the dispensation of grace, are what Paul calls a "new creature" something totally NEW God is creating to day. Our "conversation" ( our citizenship ) is in Heaven:
Philippians 3:20 For our CONVERSATION ( citizenship ) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Israel's CITIZENSHIP will be the earth:
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Israel must be "born again" before she can perform Deuteronomy 4:5-8.
- Rachel Dalrymple *head spinning * I thought the same as you Denise Summer. I feel like I need to be a Bible scholar just to truly understand it with my finite mind.
- Bernie Hance Acts 14:16 Who in times past suffered ALL NATIONS to walk in their own ways.
God suffered ALL NATIONS to walk in their own ways. These nations began to rise in Genesis 10. When you come to Genesis 11 God had scattered them due to what these nations were doing.
When you come to Genesis 12, you have ONE MAN taken out of all these nations, named Abram. God through the seed of Abram would begin creating a nation for HIS specific purpose. This nation that God was building would eventually become the nation of Israel.
As I said earlier, this nation of Israel was "born of God"
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
This nation was given the "law, the covenants, the promises" by God. God never promised the "nations" whom he eventually scattered anything.
Paul brings this up in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that YE ( Gentiles ) being in time past GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Israel was considered or called, THE CIRCUMCISION.
Israel, or THE CIRCUMCISION called the gentile nations UNCIRCUMCISION.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time YE ( Gentiles ) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
In TIME PAST the Gentiles were "without Christ", they were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" "strangers" "had no hope" and "without God"
Is it any wonder that the Bible says in Acts 14:16 that "God caused the Gentiles to walk in their own ways"?
Is it any wonder that Jesus Christ came during his earthly ministry to the "CIRCUMCISION"
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Is it any wonder that Jesus Christ told a Gentile woman she was a dog and wasn't sent to her kind of people?
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread ( ISRAEL'S BLESSINGS ) , and to cast it to dogs ( THE GENTILES )
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
Christ ministry was TO, FOR, and ABOUT the nation of Israel.
The EVIDENCE is overwhelming:
John 1:11 He came unto his OWN ( Israel ), and HIS OWN ( Israel ) received him not.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS.
Jesus commanded his 12 disciples not to go to Gentiles:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE SAMARITANS ENTER YE NOT:
Matthew 10:6 But GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
When Nicodemus confronts Jesus in John 3, do you honestly think that Jesus has GENTILES on his mind, after all the evidence is presented before you to whom Christ ministry was centered around?
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
When Jesus said these words in John 3:7 he knew Nick wasn't going to see it, Jesus wasn't stupid, he knew before hand Nick OR Israel was going to see it.
This is why Jesus said this:
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, ART THOU A MASTER OF ISRAEL, AND KNOWEST NOT THESE THINGS?
Where would a "master" of the "law" a "master of Israel" come to LEARN about these things Jesus is speaking about?
The OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES Jesus spoke about Israel being born again:
Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36, Deuteronomy 4:5-8.
Israel shall be "born again" in one day Zechariah 14:6-9, Zechariah 3:9-10,
I could go on and on and on and on, scripture after scripture after scripture revealing this glorious truth.
Hey, I am just the teacher, I share what I know, I can't be the convincer, I'll let the holy Spirit do the convincing.
Grace and Peace. - Denise Summer Rachel Dalrymple, the Cross is for everyone. John 3:16 confirms that. Jesus died once of all and anyone who receives Christ will be saved. Jesus spoke specifically to the Jews because they thought obeying the law is what saved you. That is a works based salvation. Jesus spoke the truth to them. It is faith which saves as it was with Abraham. Entering the Kingdom of God was though new birth....born again, and not by works or obeying the Law. That message is from cover to cover in the bible....OT - NT.
Rodney Myers 1 Peter 1 says that elect believers who have been sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ have been born again. (v. 16) That would be me.- Bernie Hance I am going to stand on truth here Denise Summer
John 3:16 is NOT the gospel for us today. For Israel YES, their Messiah was in their mist and they were TO BELIEVE that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.
Your right, Jesus spoke to the Jews, I am glad you see this, but Jesus taught Israel to "keep the law" not to break ties with it.
Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15 is conditional base salvation, if you do, then you get. Just like Deuteronomy 28 stays, with the blessings and curses.
Jesus said:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation.
If you do GOOD, you get LIFE
If you do EVIL, you get DAMNATION
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Huh? we are only his friends if we do what he says? This is conditional.
Denise - I know your a grace believer, I can't believe you can't see Jesus teaching the LAW to the nation of Israel. He obeyed the law to the letter and commanded those to follow suit.
When Christ was getting ready to die and leave, he told them to Obey the Scribes and the Pharisees:
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND *DO*; BUT DO NO YE AFTER THEIR WORKS, FOR THEY SAY, AND DO NOT.
These scribes and Pharisees don't keep the law.
Jesus basically is telling them "keep the law" observe the law, but don't imitate the scribes and the Pharisees.
These scribes and Pharisees wanted the appraise of men.
Israel had to have FAITH first. Then through their FAITH, they were to obey the law, give animal sacrifices, on and on and on.
Jesus didn't run around for 3 years saying to the "multitude" I am going to the cross and I am going to die for your sins, and if you will believe that I am going to die for your sins, the holy Spirit will baptize you into my Body and God the Father will impute his Righteousness to you.
Jesus Christ was MURDERED by Israel. Peter makes this perfectly clear in Acts 2 and 3
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and BY WICKED HANDS HAVE CRUCIFIED AND SLAIN:
Here is Peter's GOOD NEWS:
Acts 2:24 WHOM GOD RAISED UP, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And KILLED THE PRINCE OF LIFE, whom GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD; whereof we are witnesses.
NOWHERE in Acts 2, 3, 4, 5, does Peter say ANYTHING about Christ dying for the sins of the world.
What Peter says to Israel is what they did to Jesus Christ is a BAD THING. He calls them MURDERERS, he told them it was THEIR WICKED HANDS that CRUCIFIED and SLAIN their Messiah. Israel was very very very bad for doing this horrible horrible thing and someone in the crowd said:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?
Does Acts 2:38 sound anything remotely close to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?
You have a sec of religion out there called the "Charismatics" who stand on Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:15-18 as their GOSPEL and these Pentecostals, and Charismatic people are CLUELESS about what Jesus Christ did for them at Calvary.
Denise, I am begging you, take a stand on the word of God and go study this stuff out. - Bernie Hance Jesus said:
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life A RANSOM FOR *MANY*
Paul said:
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself A RANSOM FOR *ALL*, to be testified in due time.
If your a Calvinist, your going to latch on to Mark 10:45.
If you are a Grace believer your going to latch on to 1 Timothy 2:6
Both groups have ONE PROBLEM
Jesus said MANY and Paul said ALL
The MANY in Christ day was ISRAEL.
The ALL is everybody, the difference is the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.
Jesus didn't reveal, the prophets didn't reveal that Jesus Christ was going to DIE FOR ALL MEN, had this been made known...........well the Bible tells us what would of happen:
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But WE SPEAK THE WISDOM OF GOD IN A MYSTERY,EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, THEY WOULD *NOT* HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.
Oh satan thought he was a wise old dude, the bible says NO SECRET could be hid from old Satan.........See Ezekiel
Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:ha ha ha ha God kept a secret and it was BRILLIANT. The cross defeated satan - Bernie Hance I just simply BELIEVE the words on the page guys. I am not "adding" anything to it, just following what is being taught.
I let the words on the page say what they say, and mean what they say. - Rachel Dalrymple I see what Bernie is doing. There are somethings in God's Word meant specifically for Israel and the somethings meant specifically for the gentiles and he is dividing that up.
- Bernie Hance yep
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. - Bernie Hance Rachel Dalrymple
I leave the evidence for you to go study. May the holy Spirit, cause your understanding to be open to this glorious truth
Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, - Bernie Hance You know what the best thing is about all this Rachel Dalrymple
don't believe what I say, get into your King James Bible and study this stuff out. Your no dummy. You know how to read. Don't let any body tell you that you can't understand your Bible, the way God intended for it to be understood.
Look around you, in your town, in your community, you probably have a dozen churches and they are all teaching a different doctrine, that should say something about what satan is doing today, satans goal is to keep TRUTH from people, more importantly his goal is to keep THE GOSPEL away from people.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
How do you think satan "the god of this world" has "blinded the minds of them which "believe not"??
With a corrupt gospel
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Paul goes on to say about HIS GOSPEL:
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Now you take Paul's MY GOSPEL, see Romans 16:25-26 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and you go see if Peter, James and John or JESUS preached Paul's gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts and when you CLEARLY see that they did not, then you know that the gospel Paul is speaking about is the TRUE GOSPEL OF TODAY, and anything else is a PERVERSION.
grace and peace - Bernie Hance Peter was told by Paul to go only to the CIRCUMCISION.
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that WE ( Paul and Barnabas ) should go unto the heathen, and THEY ( Peter, James and John ) unto the circumcision.
When you come to the books of 1&2 Peter, James, 1-3 John, Revelation, these books are written to the group they were told to minister to.
In fact way way out towards the end of the book of Acts, Paul has another run in with James and James says this about THE JEWS to Paul:
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF JEWS THERE ARE WHICH BELIEVE, AND ARE ALL ZEALOUS OF THE LAW: - Bernie Hance So, the books of Peter, James, John are written to the "circumcision" even the book of Hebrews is written to the "circumcision" for whatever reason, God decided not to tell us who the author of the book is.
Contrary to popular opinion, Paul is not the author of the book. but that is another study - Rachel Dalrymple Makes sense. I never really thought about dividing it up like that. Maybe that is why I get so confused. I don't take into account that the writers plainly say who they are talking about.
- Rachel Dalrymple I will admit you have made me look at the truth/gospel in a whole new light. As I was severely judging everyone around me ESPECIALLY my loved ones who are not zealous about God/Christ. I was having panic attacks that they don't know him because they haven't turned a "new leaf" and turned away from all of their sins. Because they are radically changed. I was looking at everything they did and how they acted. This scared me to death. If I would never see this drastic change then they weren't saved in my eyes. But nonetheless they believe the simplicity of the gospel for themselves They trust in the Lord and have some reverence for him. They pray to him and do have some evidence. Even though it may not be what I thought it should be. We are not all on the same level. I was looking at their works to prove salvation because that was what I was taught and that is wrong. I mean yes, it is great if they would be so different but it isn't required and that gives me peace. They are saved if they trust in Christ sacrafice alone.
- Bernie Hance When God sent Moses down to Egypt to get Pharoh to release the children of Israel, eventually Moses lead Israel out of Egypt into the wilderness.
Moses was God's spokesperson to the children of Israel.
all through the Old Testament Exodus, Numbers over and over and over you see God saying to Moses, "Go tell the children of Israel" "Go say unto the children of Israel"
No one will argue with you, that God chose Moses to be his spokesperson to the nation of Israel.
but look out if you dare say God choose the Apostle Paul to be his spokesperson to the GENTILES.
Jesus said:
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Paul said:
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Paul said:
1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. - Denise Summer The books may have been written to the Jews but the message applies to everyone.....not just the Jews. Paul preached the gospel....being born again to enter the kingdom of God, to Gentiles as well as his brothers....Jews.
- Denise Summer Actually, my bible says that Hebrews and James were written to CHRISTIAN Jews and the book of John was written to New Christians and searching non-Christians. That means the Holy Spirit is addressing people of faith and not just "Jews". The Holy Spiri...See More
- Denise Summer Jesus Said, And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself. Luke 10
Jesus did away with the Civil and Ceremonial Law but kept the Moral Law.....Ten Commandments, which he reduced down to two. The Jews were to keep the two new commandments as are anyone who has faith in Christ. 
Peter Zacharoff Bernie,
I'm going to use caps so my answer will be distinguished from yours:
1. Can a TRUE born again believer lose salvation or not?
ANSWER:
For starters, I do not believe a “true believer” is “born again” but that is a different subject.
I THINK I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT. THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE MAY NOT BE APPLICABLE TO THE TIME AFTER THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME BECAUSE THIS TEACHING "BORN FROM ABOVE" IS IN JOHN. HOWEVER, JUST BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED BEFORE THE CROSS DOESN'T MEAN IT DIDN'T HAPPEN AFTER. THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE IS A BIT DIFFERENT AFTER THE CROSS. INSTEAD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT COMING UPON THOSE WHO BELIEVED, AS HE DID IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, HE NOW COMES INTO US. HE INDWELLS US AND FILLS US. HERE IS A QUOTE I FOUND ONLINE "The point Jesus was making is that Nicodemus should have known the truth that the Holy Spirit is the source of new life because it is revealed in the Old Testament.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-Old-Testament.html..."
BUT LOOK AT 1Pe 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I understand where people are coming from when they say “born again”, so to answer your question; No a true believer today cannot lose their salvation." SO YOU SEE, NEW TESTAMENT BELEIVERS ARE BORN AGAIN TOO.
OTHER VERSES THAT COLLABORATE THIS ARE 1John 3:9 "Whosoever is BORN of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is BORN of God." AND 1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is BORN of him." ALSO 1John 4:7 "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is BORN of God, and knoweth God." AND 1John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
FINALLY, LET ME SAY THIS... THANKS AGAIN FOR ANSWERING THESE ALL AT ONCE, BUT THEY ARE MEANT TO BE BROKEN UP AND USED AS A CATALYST FOR DISCUSSION... USUALLY ONE MAIN POINT PER THREAD. NEXT TIME, OK? THANKS.
www.gotquestions.org
What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? How is the role of the Holy Spirit today different than in the Old Testament?
- Rodney Myers Rachel. there is no harm in seeing how some Scriptures apply only to the Jews and others only to the Gentiles...but just because Jesus was talking to Nicodemus...and Peter was initially sent to the Jews so that their messages TARGETED Jews at that point does NOT mean that they are not meant to target us as well. Unfortunately, what Bernie is trying to do is render half the NT null and void for present day believers...Peter's letters, James' letter, Jude, Hebrews, the 4 Gospel's either mostly or completely irrelevant to us as believers, though he would be defensive about that...and may say it differently...but it is true about him...and it is error.
- Rodney Myers Hebrews was written to Jewish believers in the CHURCH AGE to help them understand how much Christ is greater than, as well as the fulfillment of, the OT sacrifices...so that they could understand their PRESENT POSITION IN THE CHURCH BETTER WHERE THERE IS NO MORE JEW OR GREEK
- Rodney Myers Peter's letters are written explaining present day subjects and has no reason to conclude that his letters are meant for Jewish ears only...he writes to pastors of churches WHERE THERE IS NO MORE JEW OR GREEK to 'feed the flock of God' (1 Ptr 5:2)...the coming of the Lord (2 Ptr 3:10) ...even 1 Ptr 4:16 says if ANY MAN suffer as a Christian let him glorify God...his letters where meant for the CHURCH
- Wilma Roman Praise the Lord! ....A like minded believer! Paul is my apostle too! It would be wonderful if the others on this thread would have studied and believed the scriptures rightly divided. Ppl need to understand that we will be judged by Paul's gospel. Maybe it would compel them to study RD.
- Bernie Hance yeah, to many people these days have "itchy ears"
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; - Rachel Dalrymple I've realized that I really don't know anything about God's Word anymore. One person says a passage means this, another says it means something else. I know it says no private interpretation too. I get so confused. Honestly. Why would the Holy Spirit guide everyone to different conclusions.
- Wilma Roman Rachel, it isn't the Holy Spirit leading to different conclusions. Let me ask you a question? Say you're reading a book, and it is divided into chapters. Each chspter is written for a select group of people. Wouldn't you find the chapter that was written to your specific group? Of course you would! However, when it comes to the bible, people don't use the same logic. So you see, the bible speaks to specific groups of people. Our group is gentiles. So logic should tell us to read the chapters written to the gentiles.
- Bernie Hance Amen Wilma Roman I couldn't have said it any better!
I will say this Rachel Dalrymple:
Satan's job is to keep TRUTH from you Rachel, at all cost. Using Wilma's example, wouldn't it be satan's best interest to send false teachers to teach out of chapters that are not written to us or about us?
And the question of the day becomes, why do you think it is the holy spirit guiding everyone to different conclusions? It can't be the holy spirit. The holy Spirit only know TRUTH, so it must be something else, leading people astray, and they are being lead astray by "every wind of doctrine"
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Rachel Dalrymple That verse describes me to a tee. I feel like a child. I know that it is Satan. Ever since I've felt God drawing me back to him, all of this confusion came upon me. Satan must really want me to stay away from God's book. I'm not gonna let him. I have to resist the devil and he will flee from me!
- Rodney Myers Stay in the book Rachel Dalrymple...just remember that when interpreting the Bible as the Holy Spirit leads, MOST OF THE TIME, the normal easy reading is the correct one...notice that almost ALLof the passages dealt with by Bernie does two things. First, it drastically complicates those passages! Most people reading through them would never come to the conclusions that he and others like him come to. They have to be taught. Second, it makes 90% of the Scriptures null and void to believers today. It makes no sense to do that!
As far as the 'confusion' between opposing believers, I would advise you to ask the Lord to guide you to a church where you can join and be under the spiritual guidance of ONE pastor. - Rodney Myers Rachel, I urge you to read this article which explains the errors of interpreting the Bible the way Benie does.
http://www.wayoflife.org/.../beware_of_hyper...
- Rodney Myers [An excerpt from the article] "Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone. Peter also referred to the writings of Paul and made no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other apostles (2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16). Peter said Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message. Though we know that Paul was the special apostle of the Gentiles and he was given unique revelations about the church as the body of Christ, his revelations in no way contradict the revelations given in the General Epistles (Hebrews - Jude)."
- Denise Summer Rachel Dalrymple, Rodney shared that article with me and it is very good....check it out
- Bernie Hance Hey Rachel Dalrymple
QUOTE:
"Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone"
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
One reads this verse and they see "apostles and prophets" and they automatically think that it is the 12 apostles. Lord knows I thought this many years ago, when my head was stuck in the sand.
But this can't be speaking about the 12, because Paul says this:
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Paul kept the 2 programs God had going separate, and WE TO need to keep them separate, by rightly dividing them. Don't take it from me...........take it from YOUR Apostle Paul he is the one that said it:
Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, NOT WHERE CHRIST WAS NAMED, LEST I SHOULD BUILD UPON ANOTHER MAN'S FOUNDATION:
Paul didn't go preaching to Peter, James and Johns audience.
The reason the apostle and prophets are not Peter and the boys is because:
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ( CHRIST ) ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
This is when Christ went to be at the right hand of the father.
NOTICE what Christ did AFTERWARDS:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Why did Jesus give these?
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Why else Paul?
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Any other warning Paul?
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Here is a rule of thumb for you, this is good stuff here, when referring to the 12 apostles and old testament prophets the Holy Spirit reverses the order notice for example Luke 11:
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them PROPHETS AND APOSTLES, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the HOLY PROPHETS, and of the commandment of us THE APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour:
Why would the PROPHETS be named before APOSTLES under the prophetic program for Israel?
Because under the prophetic program the PROPHETS came FIRST, then the apostles.
Stephen preaching to the high priest of Israel:
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 Which OF THE PROPHETS HAVE NOT YOUR FATHERS PERSECUTED? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Not only did they kill ALL THE PROPHETS, but they killed John the Baptist who was a prophet, and they killed Jesus Chris who was a prophet. Read Matthew 11 for time sake.
Under the mystery program, the dispensation of grace, the order is APOSTLES FIRST, then the PROPHETS, I am not making this up, this is what GOD'S WORD SAYS:
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, FIRST APOSTLES, SECONDARILY PROPHETS, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
So who are these APOSTLES and PROPHETS that Paul mentions?
Paul was an APOSTLE - See Romans 11:12, see Acts 14:14, so Barnabas was an Apostle. Apollos was an apostle see 1 Corinthians 4:6.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Silvanus and Timotheus ( Silas and Timothy ) were apostles.
As far as, Ephesians 3:5:
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Paul received the revelation of the mystery from Jesus Christ himself, NOT from man. See Galatians 1:11-12.
When you come to Ephesiasn 3:5 Paul said it was revealed unto HIS holy Apostles and prophets........BY THE SPIRIT.
Again, he isn't speaking about the Apostle Peter, James and John, he is speaking about the apostle and prophets of Paul's day.
I hope this helps Rachel, don't let the enemies of the truth sway you from this glorious truth. It's not my fault that people don't want to get into their Bibles and study this stuff out. Be a Berean Rachel, and study your Bible.
I am praying for you.
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